Methodist Monday / Post #7

We've come to my seventh - of eight - Methodist Monday Posts.  I'm writing a book to help the United Methodist Church, and your insightful comments may facilitate its return to potency, vibrancy and growth. I love the church. I'm determined to offer all the help I can to our mission of making disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world.

If you’d like to comment on the six previous Methodist Monday posts, start here.

If you’d like to see the UMC moving forward instead of back, read on…

 

 

Susan made a swing through Starbucks on her way to her weekly meeting with her student leadership team. Since being appointed to First United Methodist Church her commitment to the next generation was obvious. If anyone was wondering whether she had what it takes, this weekly meeting of High School students was testimony of her prowess.  These kids were leaders and they never missed Susan’s weekly Bible study on “Leadership.”

Susan wasn’t surprised when the kids started asking questions about the 4th chapter of Ephesians.  She read the passage aloud before the first question came.

“Ephesians 4:11-15 says, ‘It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.’”

Susan hardly finished the reading when Yolanda asked, “You’re a pastor, right?”

“That’s right.” Susan replied.

“So who are the United Methodist apostles? I don’t think the bishop has ever sent an apostle to our church, and I’ve been here since I was born seventeen years ago. When does the bishop send us an apostle, ‘to prepare God’s people for the works of service?’”

Before Yolanda could continue, Luke jumped in. “I’ve heard we have teachers in our seminaries, but what about prophets? Do we have prophets in the United Methodist Church? The only time I hear prophets mentioned is when we do a Bible study on the Old Testament. If Paul mentions apostles, prophets and evangelists in the same breath as pastors and teachers, how come United Methodists don’t recognize all five of them in the same way?”

“Yeah. What’s up with that?” A chorus of voices echoed Luke’s question. “Even when you asked us if we felt God might be calling us into the ministry, we only got asked if we’re called to be ‘pastors.’  How come you never asked if we’re called to be prophets?”

“Or apostles?” another student asked.

“Or evangelists?” two kids said at once.

Yolanda summarized the concern. “Paul listed all five of these roles together.  He seems to be saying all five are necessary. If United Methodists agreed with Paul, we’d be recruiting apostles, prophets and evangelists like we recruit pastors and teachers.  It’s obvious we don’t do that. None of us have ever even seen an apostle or a prophet. Do we believe all five of these leaders are of equal value? Look at the text. Paul seems to believe they’re all needed so ‘the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature.’ Why don’t we believe that?”

Caught off-guard, Susan took a stab at a partial explanation, but it backfired.  She said, “You know, our conference did have an official ‘Conference Evangelist’ a few years ago…”

Before she could finish, a challenge came. “What? You mean we have hundreds and hundreds of pastors but we only had one evangelist? That’s crazy! No wonder the United Methodist Church isn’t growing.  We value shepherding the people already in the church hundreds of times more than bringing new people to Christ!”

“Now, wait a minute…” Susan wanted to explain the reasons the UMC offered recognition and ordination for pastors and teachers.  But these kids were studying the Bible together, and it was obvious to every student in the room that Paul’s assumptions about the critical role of apostles, prophets and evangelists appeared quite different from the United Methodist Church’s esteem for apostles, prophets and evangelists. 

Before Susan could formulate her response, Yolanda tossed out a bottom-line question that sounded more like a statement. It hit like a bomb.

“Susan, you’ve talked with us about the decline in the United Methodist Church. You’ve told us, again and again, that the best days for the UMC are ahead of us. So tell us how that can be true, if the United Methodist Church values pastors and teachers – the leaders who teach and care for the people already in the church – but they never try to raise up, train and recruit apostles, prophets and evangelists – the ones who create action, expand ministry, focus our mission and recruit new people to the cause?” 

Luke restated the question, “How can the UMC grow if it’s led by pastors and teachers, who shepherd and teach God’s people, and it’s not led by apostles, prophets and evangelists, who expand our vision and bring new people into the church?”

Susan took a deep breath. 

She knew kids like these were the future of the United Methodist movement. And she knew this discussion was going help these students formulate their opinions about the potential of the UMC.  And she knew it was discussions like this one that fueled their fire and made some of the abstract notions of faith tangible and real.  So she launched into the fray.

“That’s an interesting way to ask your question Yolanda. Let’s talk about it…”

What should Susan say?  Does the UMC value apostolic leaders, prophets and evangelists as highly as pastors and teachers?

Got thoughts?

Revelation 2:2-5  -  I see what you've done, your hard, hard work, your refusal to quit. I know you can't stomach evil, that you weed out apostolic pretenders. I know your persistence, your courage in my cause, that you never wear out. But you walked away from your first love—why? What's going on with you, anyway? Do you have any idea how far you've fallen?

 

 

Comments

[Daniel Goepfrich]

Like Christ, apostles and prophets were foundational to the church (Ephesians 2:19-20), and the foundation is laid only once (1 Corinthians 3:10-11). Thus, while were are building on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, they are no longer necessary today.

Evangelists, pastors, and teachers were not considered foundational and are still needed today to build on what the apostles and prophets started in Christ.

[John B]

A Methodist evangelist is an oxymoron. While it is true there are a few around, they are seen by most in the hierarchy of the church as throwbacks to another time who have little to offer the church today. Most evangelists point to Jesus as the only way to God which makes Christianity exclusive and there's no greater swear word in the UM world than exclusion.

Prophets on the other hand are highly esteemed, as long as they are proclaiming God's judgment upon America. However, pointing out an individuals' rebellion against God is considered off limits. That's why UM prophets can denounce unfair immigration policies as being against God's will and can use scripture to back up that denounciation. While at the same time, scripture which points to God's opposition to matters like homosexuality or killing unborn children are rationalized away and those who do proclaim such things are denegrated.

As far as apostles, the only time I've every heard that term used in any kind of UM context is in the old Cursillo movement. When it was replaced by Walk to Emmaus the term apostolic disappeared.

[John Beavers]

Daniel, if prophets and apostles are no longer needed, then why did God appoint apostles and prophets in His Church (1 Cor. 12:28)? Furthermore, which prophets are the foundation, OT prophets or NT prophets? If OT prophets are the foundation, then why are there NT prophets? If NT prophets are the foundation, then when do prophets cease, what's the cutoff?

If OT prophets are the foundation, then NT prophets are not the foundation, and are therefore still valid because they were valid in the NT. Let's say that NT prophets were the foundation. When does God decide to stop calling Christians to be prophets? If we try to use 1 Cor. 13:10 to say that the completed canon is when prophets cease to exist, that is a tenuous argument. It's unclear what Paul is talking about in that passage, but ultimately, Paul talks about knowing fully. We don't know fully yet, so whatever Paul was talking about seems to not have happened yet.

Let's look at what Mark quoted above, "...so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Paul did talk about a foundation of apostles and prophets in Eph. 2:20, but here he says that the five ministries mentioned are "until we...become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." That certainly hasn't happened in the Church, yet, so the office of prophet must still be valid.

Another thing, in Acts, Peter quotes Joel's prophecy that says "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams, and on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy." Peter declares the initiation of the last days. God says that in these last days, Christians should be prophesying. Since the last days have not ended, we should still be expected to operate under this prophecy.

Now, to answer Marks' question: No, the UMC (in the West) does not value apostolic leaders, prophets and evangelists as highly as pastors and teachers. I don't know how the UMC in Africa or Asia feel about these offices, but the Westernized UMC does not value them as Scripture says they should.

John Beavers - 33
Former Certified Candidate
Pastor's Spouse - Shattuck, OK

[Ben McGehee]

The Book of Discipline has as a definition of apostlic ministry in Paragraph 302. But as I read it, it looks more like the definition of a pastor than an apostle... At the New Church Leadership Institute (run by Path1 through the South-Central Jurisdiction), they defined an apostle as someone uniquely gifted to plant new churches or to reach new people in new places. The UM definition of "apostolic ministry" is someone who "provides for" this kind of outreach - but may or may not do it... Again - sounds more like a pastor (shepherd) to me.

I think the UMC has lumped all five responsibilities into one category: The ordained elder. We are expected to do some of each of those functions in our church, with an emphasis on pastoring and teaching. Maybe the answer is to have some sort of recognition or distinction between them again - possibly even informal (although I doubt the Methodist church can allow anything to happen like this informally...), along with allowing those gifted in certain areas to exercise them - and exempting them from work they are not called to...

[Andrew Conard]

Mark - I have never considered this particular question before. I agree with Ben, in that the denomination is organized around these roles all being in some part the responsibility of the ordained elder. I know elders that are more highly gifted as each of the roles mentioned. As a provisional elder, I feel each of these are my responsibility. More importantly, it is my role to name these gifts in others and encourage their development for the building up of the church.

My sense is that the UMC values apostolic leaders, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers at different weights in different settings. Clearly in seminaries there is a higher weight placed on teachers. Some elders are appointed plant new churches, some to help churches that need to close do so in a way that makes sense.

[Randy Willis]

When I talk about Ephesians 4, I generally lump them all together in the category of "church leaders." :-)

For me, it's about expanding our understanding of leadership. As a pastor, I believe I'm called to teach and shepherd, but also to expand the vision of the church and to be a truth-teller who speaks for God.

In my conference, we talk a lot about "transformational leaders." I think that gets at this expanded leadership understanding a bit.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure establishing offices/titles of "apostles," "prophets," and "evangelists" is where we need to go right now.

[Abril]

I think the UMC expects pastors to be ALL of those things - sort of a "5 fer" deal. What if we worked as teams (regionally or in a community) with people who had each of those gifts? What sort of churches might grow out of that? As a pastor, I try to identify and encourage those (and other) gifts in lay people, but in the small church setting I am in now, with an older congregation, that is not always possible. But if two or three churches worked together, or if teams of pastors were formed at the District or Conference level, we'd be able to develop those gifts more fully.

[Amy]

With annual conference coming up - how do we get involved, as churches from across the country/world, and get talking about this together? Mark - you are writing a book but we are talking about similar things in our church. How do we communicate what is working and what isn't as part of the church as a whole? Conference scares me, frankly - so bureaucratic!

Just curious who/where are having these conversations and what they are doing to turn the tide of decline?

Thanks!

[Ken Row]

The UMC is not the only organization talking about this. Even the Pentecostal/Charimatic denominations, which are generally more open-minded about prophets and apostles, are debating whether or not modern-day apostles and prophets can exist.

David Cartledge, of the Assemblies of God of Australia, wrote an excellent book on this topic, The Apostolic Revolution, covering the possiblities of modern apostles and prophets, whether women could be called to these positions, and the level of consideration that should be given to the words spoken and written by modern prophets and apostles (e.g. Could/should their words carry the same authority as the Bible?).

[jeremy laduke]

In my thinking I agree in part with Randy, that establishing these as official roles in the church is probably not where we need to go. But do we need elders who are serving as apostolic and prophetic elders? Hell yeah. Our system has a way of weeding them out and playing to the inside. These tend to be the people who stir things up a little, and dysfunctional systems don't like to be stirred up, so there will always be push back on these types of leaders.

I have thought alot about the earlier post of what would you say to a dynamic leader who wants to know a reason to join the Methodist church. My first instinct is to play the 'we're dying, HELP!' card. But I think a huge question for leaders in the church is 'where can I be most effective for the Kingdom?' And pointing to a sinking ship and telling someone to save it is not very appealing, especially when there are tons of people in the water already and there are more capable boats around to save them. So the underlying question for me in that scenario is, 'Is the UMC the most effective place of service for a dynamic leader in the Kingdom?' And to that I would have to say, I don't know :) However, I want to offer a different analogy than the usual sinking ship variety. I would say that we are like a giant who has its hands tied up in a few dysfunctional systems. A giant whose power and strength is held in check. There is so much sleeping potential in our churches to change the world for the sake of Christ... to see people redeemed, to see the hungry fed, to see poverty kicked in the teeth... but we need dynamic leaders who can help untie the hands of this world changing, unchurched reaching, kick the evil one in the a** giant. That's why we need to seek out the people God has poured vision and truth into to be apostles and prophets and resource them. That's why they should be ordained in the UMC.

Light up the dark,
jeremy
www.remedynow.tv

[John Meunier]

I don't know what we value, but it would be wonderful to explore what it would mean to have these roles more fully identified and affirmed.

I suspect that we don't imagine such roles because our funding system is based on local churches. Only a few local churches have the financial resources to support an apostle or evangelist or prophet in addition to the pastors and teachers who lead the local church.

Now, the conference could collect and organize resources to recruit, train, and send out such people. But - I expect - local churches would resist the need for money or the idea of people stepping on turf.

Maybe I'm wrong. I would be happy to be wrong.

[Pastor R]

Traditionally "apostolicity" has has multiple senses. For Roman Catholics, the focus was on proper connection to the Apostles through the Roman Church. For Protestants the focus was on apostolic doctrine. If you hold to the true doctrine of the true apostles, you are apostolic. It's convenient how RCs canuse their understanding to exclude Prots, and Prots can use their understanding to exclude RCs.

But a third understanding, which I am convinced is more biblical, come out of John 20:21. "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." (Yes I know Jesus only uses a form of apostello in the first instance, resorting to a form of pempo in the second.) From this, apostolicity is Great Commission territory, and, specifically as it developed in the ministry of Paul, cross cultural and church planting ministry.

Given this line of thought, I'd reckon church planters and missionaries as those who exercise apostolic gifts. We have those in the UMC, though not as many as the mission field needs.

(If I were convinced that foundationalism was a correct and necessary accompaniment of Christian theology, I might view apostles - and prophets - as primarily filling an INFORMATIONAL role, as the people who authoritatively give us information we wouldn't have otherwise. I'm not a foundationalist, and think battles over epistemology have been a major distraction. I do admit, however, that the phenomena of the NT do indicate this role for the first generations of apostles.)